In 1895 or 1896 Ellen White wrote a long letter to an otherwise obscure Adventist minister on an island off the coast of Australia. His name, W. L. H. Baker, has become know because this letter contains statements about Christ's nature. In five consecutive paragraphs Ellen White tries to correct something Baker is implying about Chirst's human nature. The entire letter is found as Manuscript Release No. 1002, published in Manuscript Releases, vol. 13, p. 13. The five paragraphs about Christ's nature start on page 17.

So far there are only tantalizing clues about what his error was. Probably the best idea comes from the letter itself. Baker seems to have been leaving the impression on minds that at some time in Jesus' life, he was just a human, "...such an one as ourselves..." That Baker seems to have been suggesting that there was a time when Jesus gave in to his sinful human propensities can be seen in her rebukes in two scalding sentences. Here are the two sentences and my comments from another thread:

George Wrote:

EGW Wrote:Sentence 1. "He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity."

If you think about it, this is a strange way to talk about an evil propensity. Usually they are thought of as constant companions, long term habitual problems. We don't usually think of them as being a momentary, or fleeting occurrence. But notice that her emphasis is on the possibility of sinning or falling, which are momentary events. She is saying that not for one moment did He slip and allow an evil propensity to rise up and overcome Him. When she says "in Him" I think she must mean manifested in His behavior. No evil propensity ever took over and manifested itself in His behavior.

EGW Wrote:Sentence 2. "Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption."

Here again corruption is normally a long term issue, and yet the way she phrases the whole sentence, especially the word "rested," gives the impression of a fleeting event. You can almost imagine her considering the variation "rested for a moment upon Christ." Again, the focus is clearly on performance or behavior.

This letter was discovered in the 1950's and, in the hands of a few of our leaders, has been twisted into a weapon that has done immeasurable damage to our church's understanding of the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Suddenly, there was a perceived limitation to how far Christ would go to save sinners. The word "propensity" loomed in our minds as something so strong that Christ Himself would not dare take it on. It was implied that the Champion of our salvation turned tail when the road got too rough.

Never before had we been confused about how a person is judged. We began to think that if Christ took into His human nature too many of our sinful defects, that because of the very presence of those defects He would become unholy. But no one is judged by their nature. It's how you behave in that nature--your thoughts and actions--that counts, and the same is true in Christ's case. The mere presence of defects would not have sullied Him. Jesus' record shows that no matter what was laid on Him, He did not break, He did not yield. He was victorious in all things. That is good news.

So what do we do about this letter, now that it is out of the bag? What was Baker's error exactly? Had he absorbed adoptionism? Was he recruited into Freemasonry? His problem was obviously quit unique because there is no indication that Ellen White ever referred to the letter again even though it sat in her files for twenty years of her life. That doesn't make sense if it was the seminal work on the nature of Christ that some would have us believe.

What are the events surrounding the discovery and publishing of the letter? What were the motives of the ones who were responsible?

The purpose of this thread is to help us come to grips with the damage that has been done by the misuse of this letter and begin repairing that damage.

George,

I have read the Baker letter more than once. As I did so, it seemed to have the ring of exactly what Ellen White intended to say. I believe that this same issue is repeated in a number of her other writings, but not using the words "no sinful propensities."

There is from Ann Walper, the Gospel Herald, Lancaster, Tennessee an article of comments on the Baker letter. http://www.gospel-herald.com/walper_ann/...letter.htm It is a very good discussion. To my mind, she omits some important considerations.

Are there some “propensities” that we are born with? Ann Walper discusses those propensities that are acquired by actually sinning. Christ had none of those, as He did not sin. However, there are propensities that may be “second nature” in some people:

• Rebellion, incorrigible
• Anger, loss of temper
• Alcoholism, addictions -- can be inherited in some people.
• Apathy toward God. Not evil, just not interested -- Jesus had an inborn connection with God, evident from babyhood.
• Selfishness, selfish ambition -- babies are naturally selfish and must be trained out of it. Did Jesus have this problem?
• Pride

Granted that the Baker letter has been misused. I believe because the issues have not been clearly defined. The same can be said of a number of other statements Ellen White has written.

(05-15-2010 02:41 AM)Hubert Wrote:  I have read the Baker letter more than once. As I did so, it seemed to have the ring of exactly what Ellen White intended to say. I believe that this same issue is repeated in a number of her other writings, but not using the words "no sinful propensities."

There is no question in my mind that Ellen White said exactly what needed to be said to Baker. What I question is your assertion that the same sentiments are "repeated in a number of her other writings." I just finished a thorough fuzzy search of her writings using each line, in half line increments, of the five critical paragraphs. I read all 170 paragraphs resulting from the search. I found virtually nothing in common with her other writings. I did not find a single comment qualifying in any way what parts of human nature Christ took. The body of her writing supports the position that He took it all.

Now you could be right, but it is going to have to be more than an assertion. If you find something please post it here for our perusal, this is very important for the health of the gospel.

George.

George,

That is a big assignment. You read 440 paragraphs? When did you have time to eat or sleep. Maybe you are speed reader. Yet it takes time to find those paragraphs.

So, did Ellen White express similar sentiments in different words? Do her writings express the concept that Jesus by nature DID have the sinful proclivities, propensities, and sinful desires that we are all born with? Or maybe easier to find, that Jesus by nature DID NOT have those sinful proclivities, propensities, and sinful desires that we are all born with.

If I said it wrong, please get me straight.

(05-15-2010 01:02 PM)Hubert Wrote:  That is a big assignment. You read 440 paragraphs? When did you have time to eat or sleep. Maybe you are speed reader. Yet it takes time to find those paragraphs.

I misspoke. It was only 170 paragraphs. The Waggoner project is 440. But I logged all 170 on the Baker search so maybe it seemed like more.

Hubert Wrote:  So, did Ellen White express similar sentiments in different words? Do her writings express the concept that Jesus by nature DID have the sinful proclivities, propensities, and sinful desires that we are all born with? Or maybe easier to find, that Jesus by nature DID NOT have those sinful proclivities, propensities, and sinful desires that we are all born with.

In my opinion she strongly favors, if not completely supports the view that He took everything into the human nature that He dealt with. I will put the list at the bottom so you can look, too. I used the search engine at http://www.egwwritings.eu/writings/ so the paragraph numbering system and book codes are theirs. The page is down right now, maybe I ruined it. I included the first five words of most of the paragraphs to help in location.

George.

PS

1888 448.4 The popular doctrines of this
1888 559.7 O that we might gather
1888 636.2 Now I have great sorrow
1888 764.3 Why is it that men
1888 1243.2 I would say to our
1888 1412.1 I received your letters July
7ABC 447.3 In taking upon Himself man’s
7ABC 447.4 Be careful, exceedingly careful as
7ABC 448.2 Avoid every question in relation
7ABC 451.1 Would that we could comprehend
7ABC 451.2 I perceive that there is
7ABC 455.4 In taking upon Himself man’s
AG 35.3 The first Adam fell; the
AG 162.1 The prince of this world
AG 162.7 On not one occasion was
5BC 1081.6 Christ, in the wilderness of
5BC 1114.10 Christ brought men and women
5BC 1128.4 Be careful, exceedingly careful as
5BC 1128.5 Bro. _____, avoid every question
5BC 1128.6 These words do not refer
5BC 1129.1 I perceive that there is
5BC 1129.2 The first Adam fell; the
5BC 1131.3 In taking upon Himself man’s
6BC 1114.5 In the council of heaven
7BC 925.1 Leaving the royal courts of
7BC 927.5 Satan finds in human hearts
7BC 929.2 Those who claim that it
7BC 933.7 The infinite sufficiency of Christ
BEcho 1892/11/1 par. 54 Those who claim that it
BEcho 1893/12/1 par. 225 Although the only begotten Son
BEcho 1894/4/30 par. 378 In this age, as then
BEcho 1913/10/20 par. 55 Christ, in the wilderness of
CD 152 The prince of this world
CH 140.2 The prince of this world
Con 32.1 Christ, in the wilderness of
CT 487.3 It is not safe to
CTr 215.5 Satan felt that all the
CTr 259.1 Hereafter I will not talk
CTr 259.4 Just previous to His crucifixion
CUM 1907/9/3 par. 5 The Saviour, during his life
DA 81 In the answer to His
DA 123 The prince of this world
DA 679 Upon this word Jesus rested
FLB 23.3 The prince of this world
FLB 49.1 Hereafter I will not talk
FLB 49.4 He could have sinned; He
FLB 49.5 In taking upon Himself man’s
FLB 49.6 Not even by a thought
FLB 157.2 In the council of heaven
GC 623.1 Now, while our great High
GC88 622.4 Now, while our great High
GCB 1895/2/25 par. 2 It is true that Christ
GCB 1895/2/25 par. 3 It is true that Christ
HM 1892/9/1 par. 151 The Saviour directed his disciples
LDE 267.2 Now, while our great High
LHU 74.3 The doctrine of the incarnation
LHU 300.1 The prince of this world
LHU 300.3 Upon this word Jesus rested
Messenger 1893/4/12 par. 18 In the council of heaven
ML 324.2 When the last steps of
MM 73.1 It is not safe to
9MR 353.2 This accusing spirit will continue
9MR 365.3 Of Christ it is said
12MR 404.3 Christ took humanity upon Himself
13MR 18.1 Be careful, exceedingly careful as
13MR 18.2 Bro. Baker, avoid every question
13MR 19.1 These words are not addressed
13MR 19.2 I perceive that there is
13MR 19.3 The first Adam fell: the
14MR 348.2 Christ assumed human nature that
17MR 336.3 Those who claim that it
17MR 337.4 The love and justice of
OFC 234.4 The prince of this world
OHC 78.2 In the council of heaven
PC 338.1 Why is it that men
PCP 24.5 Satan claimed that it was
PH154 60.1 God’s field is the world
PP 475.2 He was permitted to look
PP 755.4 For unto us a Child is
PP 762.2 The kingdom was then subject
PrT 1885/11/19 par. 16 In Christ were united the
PUR 1905/2/9 par. 728 Christ assumed human nature, that
RC 120.5 Now, while our great High
RC 308.6 The prince of this world
2Red 30.3 Christ, in the wilderness of
RH 1874/7/28 par. 1340 Christ, in the wilderness of
RH 1883/11/6 par. 3971 Our Saviour declared upon one
RH 1884/5/27 par. 4331 Just before his cruel death
RH 1887/11/8 par. 6593 Would that we could comprehend
RH 1888/2/28 par. 6753 When Adam fell and lost
RH 1888/9/4 par. 7128 Self has been petted and
RH 1890/3/11 par. 7981 O that we might gather
RH 1890/11/11 par. 8334 When Jesus said, “I am
RH 1890/12/23 par. 8458 Why is it that men
RH 1891/5/19 par. 8669 Many seem to think that
RH 1891/12/22 par. 9004 All this could be, because
RH 1892/4/24 par. 10276 Jesus had humbled himself, clothing
RH 1892/7/19 par. 9282 Christ is our example. In
RH 1892/7/5 par. 9269 Christ came to our world
RH 1892/10/25 par. 9399 What honor has been bestowed
RH 1894/4/3 par. 10237 But the angel said unto
RH 1894/4/24 par. 10276 Jesus had humbled himself, clothing
RH 1894/4/24 par. 10278 Although the only begotten Son
RH 1894/7/24 par. 10405 In one of his confidential
RH 1894/10/23 par. 10525 Through all ages God has
RH 1895/10/29 par. 11016 Just previous to his crucifixion
RH 1896/5/19 par. 11283 Christ was one with us
RH 1896/6/9 par. 11311 You need never feel that
RH 1896/9/15 par. 11458 Not by works of righteousness
RH 1896/11/17 par. 11584 But this is not the
RH 1902/1/7 par. 16065 The Lord wants every one
RH 1905/8/31 par. 19503 Jesus Christ is the Son
RH 1906/4/5 par. 20093 The doctrine of the incarnation
RH 1909/1/7 par. 22340 He that loveth me not
RH 1912/3/14 par. 24705 Now, while our great High
RH 1913/2/20 par. 25248 Many seem to think that
2SAT 194.3 God has called us to
2SAT 338.6 Hereafter I will not talk
1SM 226 Christ brought men and women
1SM 246 The doctrine of the incarnation
1SM 252 After the fall of man
1SM 256 In taking upon Himself man’s
1SM 267 Christ, in the wilderness of
3SM 132.4 The love and justice of
3SM 192.2 Many seem to think that
3SP 183.2 The holy angels were horror
ST 1878/1/17 par. 677 Our Savior had one more
ST 1883/7/19 par. 4098 Luther was not blinded to
ST 1887/9/15 par. 6439 We have a precious loving
ST 1888/3/23 par. 6783 We are living in a
ST 1889/9/30 par. 7464 We do not appreciate the
ST 1892/4/18 par. 8295 This was the Saviour who
ST 1892/10/10 par. 8488 Those who claim that it
ST 1893/1/2 par. 8548 In the council of heaven
ST 1893/4/10 par. 8644 The world’s Redeemer passed over
ST 1893/8/14 par. 8770 The Lord sends his ministers
ST 1894/1/1 par. 8926 In this age, as then
ST 1894/8/20 par. 9218 The Pharisees and the religious
ST 1895/6/6 par. 9575 As we journeyed homeward, my
ST 1896/1/2 par. 9798 God was in Christ, reconciling
ST 1896/1/2 par. 9803 We may say, “I know
ST 1896/1/16 par. 9815 Satan declared that it was
ST 1897/3/4 par. 10384 We may say that it
ST 1897/10/7 par. 10802 The Elder Brother of our
ST 1897/11/25 par. 10873 If ye loved me,” said
ST 1898/1/6 par. 10945 Only by Christ’s aid can
ST 1899/5/10 par. 11704 Christ emptied Himself of His
ST 1900/8/29 par. 12500 Which of you convinceth Me
ST 1904/12/14 par. 14198 God so loved the world
ST 1905/8/23 par. 14452 The prince of this world
ST 1908/12/9 par. 14966 The world’s Redeemer came to
2T 201.1 In Christ were united the
5T 293.2 Satan saw in Brother D
TA 157.3 Before His [Christ’s] birth the
TDG 143.1 The prince of this world
TMK 12.3 Christ was using the great
TMK 34.4 Satan finds in human hearts
TMK 279.3 Many seem to think that
TMK 354.3 The “time of trouble, such
TSDF 154.5 The prince of this world
UL 134.3 Christ was the Lord of
UL 172.3 Satan claimed that it was
UL 282.4 We learn a lesson in
UL 354.2 I have very solemn feelings
YI 1874/1/1 par. 253 Christ came as the sinner’s
YI 1886/11/3 par.427 The inspired record concerning Christ
YI 1892/6/30 par. 485 What an event was this
YI 1892/10/13 par. 541 The youth are called upon
YI 1894/7/19 par. 977 You have forsaken the fountain
YI 1894/8/30 par. 1017 When the parents saw a
YI 1894/9/6 par. 1021 Shall we obey the injunction
YI 1895/8/22 par. 1158 Without the kingdom of God
YI 1896/1/30 par. 1231 How important it is that
YI 1899/12/28 par. 2415 We have a great high
YI 1900/1/4 par. 2417 Christ knows all about our

George,

I started down that long list of references and soon found that they were not so much a search for material on the nature of Christ, as an examination of the Baker letter.

So I went back to my CD-ROM and found a number of references which are listed in the next post.

I have also examined the Appendix B in Questions on Doctrines, p. 650-654. Touched with our Feelings by J.R. Zurcher (largely a review of Questions on Doctrine), and the Seventh-day Adventist Handbook on Theology, section by Raoul Dederen, Christ, His Person and Work, p. 198-201.

The consensus I gather from these is that Christ as the second Adam met Satan as Adam did and gained the victory where Adam failed. There are also statements that Jesus met these temptations after the deleterious effects of 4000 years of sin, and from a Satan who had much enhanced abilities to tempt mankind.

Such a study is complicated by the fact that these questions are relatively new, and apparently were not an issue in Ellen White’s day. So that they are not addressed in specific detail. If anything, there may be more of an emphasis to experience Christ, rather than to be too concerned with these details -- except for the fact that Jesus IS our example in overcoming sin.

Is this a salvation issue? It depends on how your belief is used. If a person comes away from this, feeling that Jesus’ atonement was inadequate, or if a person believes that we cannot take Jesus for an example and overcome sin, it is definitely a salvation issue. And a person’s belief tends to follow logical paths to how he lives his life. Thus further study on this doctrine is warranted, not for argument, but for teaching and guidance by the Holy Spirit.

Nature of Christ from Ellen White writings

But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. The Great Controversy, Author’s preface.

We need a deep insight into the nature of Christ and into the mystery of His love, "which passeth knowledge" (Eph. 3:19). We are to live in the warm, genial rays of the Sun of Righteousness. Nothing but Christ's loving compassion, His divine grace, His almighty power, can enable us to baffle the relentless foe and subdue the opposition of our own hearts. In Heavenly Places, chapter 58

In Christ the light and love of God were manifested in human nature. No human being has ever possessed so sensitive a nature as did the sinless, Holy One of God, who stood as head and representative of what humanity may become through the imparting of the divine nature.--YI, Aug 16, 1894. (KH 288.) Mind, Character, and Personality, vol. 1, chapter 27

The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only-begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ. Selected Messages, Book a, chapter 34, p. 251

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. Selected Messages, Book 1, chapter 35

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. Our faith must be an intelligent faith, looking unto Jesus in perfect confidence, in full and entire faith in the atoning sacrifice (ST June 9, 1898). {5BC 1131.4}

The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ. Review and Herald. April 5, 1906.

The nature of Christ was a combination of the divine and the human. Having all the attributes of God, He also represented the excellencies of humanity and ... 11MR No. 911

The human nature of Christ was like unto ours. 11MR No. 911

There should not be the faintest misgivings in regard to the perfect freedom from sinfulness in the human nature of Christ. Our faith must be an intelligent faith, looking unto Jesus in perfect confidence, in full and entire faith in the atoning sacrifice. 16MR No. 1201

Jesus was free from all sin and error; there was not a trace of imperfection in His life or character. He maintained spotless purity under circumstances the most trying. 17MR No. 1295
..............................................
This is what I found from my study from the CD-ROM. I tried to eliminate any reference coming from the Baker letter. I suspect that you could come up with a similar list showing that Jesus did in fact have a sinful nature. The issue is not clear cut, I think because it was not an issue in Mrs. White's day. At present we have well respected scholars on both sides of the question.

There ARE consequences from how we believe on this, and further study is warranted, with much prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Hubert, thank you for keeping me in projects. I'm sure it's keeping me out of trouble. I will come back to your whole list, but in my first reading I noticed a reference that I should have hit with the Baker letter string search. So that drew my immediate attention.

(05-17-2010 02:10 PM)Hubert Wrote:  We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. Our faith must be an intelligent faith, looking unto Jesus in perfect confidence, in full and entire faith in the atoning sacrifice (ST June 9, 1898).

I was so concerned about missing this, that I went back and double checked everything. I found three more of what I call negative hits (they turned out to not contain matching phases larger than six words). I edited my original list and filled in some paragraph "beginning words" (the five words after each reference). But I still missed ST June 9, 1898.

I misses it because it doesn't exist. Do you have the blue four volume set of EGW Signs of the Times reprints? Check it out. There is nothing for June 9, 1898. Fortunately, it is somehow reprinted in Selected Messaged, vol.1, p. 252ff., which I had hit on the first run, Whew!

But my original search only hit the first paragraph. That paragraph contains the only phrase (over six words long) in common with the Baker letter, namely "...nature, and was tempted in all points..." This match is probably due to Mrs. White's personal memory of scripture since she often refers to the text in Hebrews 4:15, but never in quotation marks.

Have you taken the time to read the whole ST June 9, 1898 article? You quoted a line from the end of the article, but here are some quotes from earlier on:

EGW Wrote:...In taking human nature, Christ was fitted to understand man’s trials and sorrows and all the temptations wherewith he is beset. Angels who were unacquainted with sin could not sympathize with man in his peculiar trials...(1SM 252.1)

EGW Wrote:...So infinitely great that He was the Majesty of heaven, and yet He stooped so low, without losing one atom of His dignity and glory! He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men...(1SM 253.1)

EGW Wrote:...There was not a drop of our bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of our curse which He did not endure...(1SM 253.2)

EGW Wrote:...Behold Him making the wants, the trials, the griefs and sufferings of sinful men His own. Can we not take home the lesson that God endured these sufferings and bruises of soul in consequence of sin?...(1SM 253.3)

EGW Wrote:...In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin...He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He knew no sin...Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel....(1SM 256.1)

Here is Mrs. Whites clear explanation of the demarcation line that she sees. It is between Christ performance as represented by His head, and His equipment as represented by His heel. His heel was bruised as a consequence of sin, but His head was not touched because He never gave in to the fallen human nature that He took. Her triple parallel is crystal clear. He took but did not participate, He was touched but did not sin and Satan bruised His heel but not His head.

If Ellen White had any reservations about sinful propensities being included in what Christ took, this article would have been a good place to air them. But there is nothing here like the Baker letter. In your quote she emphasizes the "perfect sinlessness" of Christ's performance, because this will allow us to look "unto Jesus in perfect confidence," knowing that He is a complete victor over all our sins, and he can save us from all of them.

George.

Thank you George, you have done a monumental work on this topic. I believe that E.J. Waggoner also had something to say. Do you have that reference?

It would be nice to have some others of the 1888 Message Study Committee contribute their insights. Are there any others who would like to make a comment?

George,

Just thinking about it ......

I have the EGW CD-ROM, not the newest one, but very complete. When I enter a phrase in quotes, it will find that phrase in any of her writings, and in any location in the article. Not just the first line of a paragraph. Does your program have that same feature?