This thread is started to clarify what Justification is. We talk much about it. It is the basic doctrine of the 1888 Message. Yet I am not sure that we have a clear view of what it is. Here is a verse:

Quote: . . . 16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16, KJV).

On the basis of this verse, are we "justified by faith" or do we by faith "believe that Jesus has already justified us?"

The 1888MSC teaches the first, which is a second step that follows the legal justification given to all men through the Cross of Christ. But the language (syntax) leaves open that the second is true. In which ALL justification is by definition legal; and "experiential justification" that follows is actually sanctification.
.................................................
Here are some definitions:

In Christian theology, justification is God's act of declaring or making a sinner righteous before God. The concept of justification occurs in many books of the Old and New Testaments.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(theology)

Justification noun
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/justification
1. reasonable grounds for complaint, defence, etc.
2. the act of justifying; proof, vindication, or exculpation
3. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology)
. . . a. the act of justifying
. . . b. the process of being justified or the condition of having been justified
4. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) Also called justification by faith. Protestant theology; the doctrine that God vindicates only those who repent and believe in Jesus

Justification definition, noun
http://www.yourdictionary.com/justification
. . . 1. a justifying or being justified
. . . 2. a fact that justifies or vindicates
. . . 3. Christian Theology: the state or condition, necessary for salvation, of being blameless or absolved of the guilt of sin

Justification
http://www.brainyquote.com/words/ju/just...81982.html
• The act of justifying or the state of being justified; a showing or proving to be just or conformable to law, justice, right, or duty; defense; vindication; support; as, arguments in justification of the prisoner's conduct; his disobedience admits justification.
• The showing in court of a sufficient lawful reason why a party charged or accused did that for which he is called to answer.
• The act of justifying, or the state of being justified, in respect to God's requirements.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Justification
http://www.answers.com/topic/justification
In Christian theology, the passage of an individual from sin to a state of grace. Some theologians use the term to refer to the act of God in extending grace to the sinner, while others use it to define the change in the condition of a sinner who has received grace. St. Paul used the term to explain how people moved from sin to grace through the death and resurrection of Jesus and not through any human effort. St. Augustine saw it as an act of God that makes sinners righteous, while Martin Luther stressed justification through faith alone.

Kim here. Actually, I believe the 1888 MSC stand is that Christ justified all at the cross, and by faith we accept that justification.

Kim, as I understand it, the 1888MSC teaches that all men are justified, acquitted by what Jesus did at the cross. See Romans 5:16-18. This is all men, before faith. It is the gift of God from the Cross. It IS necessary for the Christian to exercise faith and consent to the work of grace for his life to be changed and to be made a new creature in Christ.

Here is what I said:

Quote: . . . On the basis of this verse (Galatians 2:16), are we "justified by faith" or do we by faith "believe that Jesus has already justified us?"
. . . The 1888MSC teaches the first, which is a second step that follows the legal justification given to all men through the Cross of Christ. But the language (syntax) leaves open that the second is true. In which ALL justification is by definition legal; and "experiential justification" that follows is actually sanctification.

The first step in this process is the justification that all men, good and bad, receive through the cross. the second step is by faith through grace this justification becomes experiential. (end of the 1888msc understanding).

The definitions that follow in my post, indicate that justification is a declaration, not an experience. Do you catch the difference? Thus ALL justification is legal by definition.

If and when it becomes an experience, the process has now entered what we call sanctification. that is when our lives are actually changed by grace. This is a technical point, but important if we are to understand justification and what Jesus did at the cross.

Jesus Himself, never used words like justification and sanctification. He said simply, "Follow Me." I like that. To follow Jesus you must believe Him, take steps in His direction, and stay with Him. Simple, easy to understand, and profound.

Kim here:

Herbert wrote:

Here is what I said:

Quote: . . . On the basis of this verse (Galatians 2:16), are we "justified by faith" or do we by faith "believe that Jesus has already justified us?"
. . . The 1888MSC teaches the first, which is a second step that follows the legal justification given to all men through the Cross of Christ. But the language (syntax) leaves open that the second is true. In which ALL justification is by definition legal; and "experiential justification" that follows is actually sanctification.

Kim Replies:

You stated that the 1888 MSC teaches we are justified by faith... (see your quotes above)

I answered: "Actually, I believe the 1888 MSC stand is that Christ justified all at the cross, and by faith we accept that justification."

As I read through our previous posts, I realize we have missed the most important aspect of this discussion:

. . . 16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16, KJV).

We are not justified by our faith, weak and feeble as it is. We are justified by Christ's faith. ALL are justified by HIS FAITH. It's His faith that is on the line, not ours. It's His faith that held true on the cross, and His faith that justified the entire human race. It doesn't say that we are justified by our faith. It says that man is justified by "the faith of Jesus Christ". There is a huge difference. When you understand this aspect, it makes it clear that we have no part in it. It's all about Jesus, His faith, His justification. It's already a done deal. Just because someone might not believe it doesn't negate it or make it untrue.

Kim, you are thinking and good for you!

Quote:We are not justified by our faith, weak and feeble as it is. We are justified by Christ's faith.

This is not a bad statement, but it needs to be clarified. I agree, NO ONE is justified by "faith." He is justified only by faith "in Christ." Then as you develop this thought further, you emphasize that we are justified by His faith, not by our faith. Again, I agree, our justification is NOT something that "I" do, it is something that God does. However, I believe that it is "I" that must exercise faith in God. Otherwise it becomes a passive ride to heaven where we have no part.

When the publican smote his breast and cried, "Lord, be merciful to me a sinner," he was exercising faith that God would and could be merciful to him. It was through his faith in God that he went home justified.

If you look back on my posts, I think you will see that it is important to carefully define our words. How is "Justification" defined? And now, how is "faith" defined?

I heard a testimony this Sabbath from a man who struggled with addictions. He wanted to be a Christian, wanted to be free of addictions, but failed repeatedly. Finally in desperation, he cried, "Jesus help me, take these things away from me, and help me to be a Christian!" God answered his prayer, and now he is pastor of our church, and preaches gospel oriented sermons, based, I believe, on this experience in his early life.

Kim here:

Again, the Bible says we are justified by the faith OF Jesus, not our faith in Jesus. I don't think I can clarify any clearer than that. The faith that Jesus showed by example was the faith that held Him on the cross - faith that God would do what He said He would do. Our "job" is to accept Jesus' sacrifice, and believe that God is who He says He is and that He will do what He says He will do. We latch on to Jesus' faith and let Him take us where He will. I don't find that passive at all.

Herbert wrote:

This is not a bad statement, but it needs to be clarified. I agree, NO ONE is justified by "faith." He is justified only by faith "in Christ." Then as you develop this thought further, you emphasize that we are justified by His faith, not by our faith. Again, I agree, our justification is NOT something that "I" do, it is something that God does. However, I believe that it is "I" that must exercise faith in God. Otherwise it becomes a passive ride to heaven where we have no part.

Kirola,

The faith OF Jesus is the faith that He held to carry Him through the trial, crucifixion, and the sense of separation from the Father. He did that for us as a human, a man. The knowledge of how offensive sin is to the Father, raised a real conflict in his mind -- would their separation be permanent?

Then He remembered: "this is my Beloved Son" at His baptism, and when He was transfigured. He remembered the hours and nights of prayer. And the people so needful of Heaven's blessing. If He chose not to go through with the ordeal, humanity would be lost. He chose to do the Father's will.

His faith was tested as no man has ever been tested. He felt the horror of great darkness. He looked into an eternity without life and without God. He "tasted" death for every man. He felt a separation from the Father -- but His faith held on when it seemed that all was lost.

That is the faith of Jesus. And it is because His faith was strong that we are justified and have eternal life.
.............................................
Do human beings have a part to play in this? Do humans need to choose, to consent to the work of grace? Or does God do that for us too? From Steps to Christ, my understanding is that there is an important part that we must play, and this needs to be clearly understood. God gave us free will, and He will never over-ride that free will. But that is another subject (that Georgee and I discussed at some length for several months.)

Have a nice Sabbath day!